8th Edition and 2011 Orc discussion, O&G out Q1 2011

The reason I don't like the building rules is that it's actually worse for a crappy unit to enter it, than staying out. Would you rather have five skaven/humans/whatever that's non-elite fighting in the first rank of a unit, with rank bonus, or have ten of them spread out trying to win by kills alone? Buildings are great for elite infantry for the same reason, since they thrive on kills.

The thought that "I hope that that big infantry unit enters that building over there, so it's easier to kill them" is just wrong.

They're also very good for missile troops, but with a drawback.

I think mechanically they work well. Most importantly is that they flow easily. I think they add an interesting mechanic to the game.

I find buildings useful and add flavour. It negates a challenge so it was good for high init elite troops, plus the crossfire ability if people ran into them they were dead.

Challenges are another tactical level. Do you have enough CR to allow a really killy hero to butcher your champion? Negating a BSB's use. Using Annoyance of Netlings to tie up a khorne chaos lord. I find they are highly thought out amongst the vets I play.

Before games (and specifically terrain placement) we always decide what level the hills are and what can hide behind them.

Relating the game to a video game seems odd. There have been games. Does it matter how the two relate movement wise? I tend to not think so, especially the "incase they make" part.

Really,.. if you don't like something just tell your opponent you'd rather not play with it. Taking out rules you dislike is why I suggested this to be just personal preference.

My Fiends of Slaanesh love buildings. Charge from 20" away and you dont get your ranks... Thanks for removing your combat res.

But really the rules in general work well for buildings, in a once off kind of situation. The problem comes when someone places a whole village on the table. Then things get stupid, fast.

Much like when you place lots of any terrain on the table.

How do killpoints work?

Poorly. Pray they never enter wfb.

Kill points aren't that bad... Basically each unit is worth a Kill point and killing the whole unit gains you that kill point. Player with the most at the end wins.

It works well at detering people from spamming MSU in 40k, and it works just fine when you are playing 1/3 of games with KPs and 2/3 with Objectives. But some tournies/gaming groups aren't playing that way right now which makes them imbalanced one way or the other.

I must say it would be nice sometimes to make Lizzies think twice about all those little Skink units, DEs about those Harpies etc. I suppose Warhounds might be a worry though...

Frankly I just don't think Warhammer Fantasy needs or works with missions/objectives etc. There's far too much variation in movement meaning certain armies just get hug and kissed over in objective missions... Give me pitched battle any day of the week!

The reason they work in 40k is because everything has the same 6" walk/12" for vehicles (give or take) meaning there isn't too much advantage either way.

Providing there are enough objectives in a game (4-5), objectives actually promote diversity in armies.

Without them, there is no reason for gunlines to ever bing more than token cc elements. There is no reason for cav to bring infantry support. There is no reason not to deathstar, if your army can do it well.

If there were objectives, gunlines would be instantly neutered; players would need to build better blends of movement, combat and support fire, with the knowledge that every unit tasked to protect the artillery was not contesting objectives. Dwarves might need repricing to work in this envirnment, but they have all the tools to play this way. They just don't want to because turtling is easier and more effective. All the other gunlines in the game can do it just fine. Cav-heavy armies are depowered because they now must not only charge enemies to break them, but must also hold objectives... not the best role for small units with no static res. Deathstar units are still uber, but holding only 20-25% of the objectives with half your army's points is just dumn any way you look at it.

But the balanced army, with some shooting to weaken key enemy units, and some infantry to hold objectives, and some mobile strikepower to either challenge for objectives and just for raw killing power... those are the armies that do best at objective based missions. I'm in favour of them. Have been since the awesome 40K rules of engagement article in WD years ago. I've tried to adapt them to fantasy and found the much more simplified objectives=vp's works best at neutering the prominent power builds.

But then we have armies like dwarves, that just don't play that way. if they have to break their lines in order to have to go after objectives, then they are just going to get swarmed individually and eaten. That's just further asking every dwarf player to bring the AoD.

As far as kill points go, it's a good idea in theory, but GW makes it bad in practice. That's because of one overwhelming flaw they seem to have. This nagging inability to be able to release a FAQ, or erratta for an army when a new ruleset makes them unplayable. See Tyranid Spores. Why on earth does a unit that's designed to run into the enemy and explode offer kill points for doing so?

As I said in my (rather longwinded) post above, Dwarves would most likely have to be repriced, but they do have the tools to cross half the table and contest objectives... they just have no reason to do that or build armies that way right now.

As for kill points, I think they are a dreadful idea for warhammer. They favour gunlines and magiclines who can remove entire units far more effectively than combat units can, especially footsloggers. If you ever wanted to encourage magic/gunlines supported by knights/chariots, kill points are the best way to do it.

I just realized, if GW has kits for buildings, you can be more assured they will play a part of future games. Planetstrike forced people to buy a book and another $100+ in terrain. Expect to see GW push more ancillary products.